eMusic General

Before posting the ABKCO catalogue on eMusic at the beginning of April, we pursued every level of due diligence possible. We triple- and quadruple-checked with every possible party at both ABKCO and Universal Music Group, which distributes the label, and the word was unanimous: let's do this. Green-lit, we proceeded to do what we do best: we got the best writers in the world to put it in context, and we presented the catalogue to you with an impressive amount of musical and historical background. ABKCO and UMG were both incredibly impressed by both the treatment and the sales: the catalogue (even stuff beyond the Stones) generated a huge number of downloads. But this was not enough. Due to events outside of our control, we are being forced to remove the entire ABKCO catalogue from eMusic effective tomorrow morning. We hope to get them back at some point, but for now, we have no choice. The shame here is that you, our customers, the exact sort of music fan that the music industry should celebrate and reward, suffers as a result of this classic industry snafu. While the industry concerns itself with arcane details, the music consumer -- a dying breed, mind you -- is restricted from legally acquiring music. It's a maddening situation that eMusic has been committed to repairing for the last ten years, and always will be: people don't mind paying for music so long as it's affordable and they aren't handicapped by DRM restrictions and the like when they pull out their wallets. We are of course sorry to see the catalogue go, and we are disappointed that so many customers didn't have the opportunity to own more of it. Still, there are numerous new additions to the site on the horizon, some already big and others poised for amazing things. We're excited to together see what comes next.

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Topic Outline

* RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by qwynwyn on May 2 at 5:02 PM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by oakroom on May 2 at 5:08 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by DanielEsq on May 2 at 5:14 PM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by CCRGMac on May 2 at 6:23 PM EDT         * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by eclectricity on May 2 at 6:40 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by qwynwyn on May 2 at 5:22 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by oakroom on May 2 at 8:01 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by DanielEsq on May 2 at 5:08 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by eclectricity on May 2 at 5:12 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by discokvn on May 2 at 5:20 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Porieux on May 2 at 5:37 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by CBCD on May 2 at 6:01 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Eireboy on May 2 at 6:10 PM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by rastamon on May 2 at 6:38 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by mommio on May 2 at 9:08 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Baxter on May 2 at 9:24 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 2 at 10:42 PM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 2 at 11:01 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 2 at 11:12 PM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 2 at 11:20 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by davidmin2 on May 2 at 11:34 PM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 3 at 12:24 AM EDT         * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Joey Jo Jo on May 3 at 1:06 AM EDT           * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 3 at 1:24 AM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 9 at 10:57 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Wesley on May 3 at 12:39 AM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 3 at 5:45 AM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by RobG on May 3 at 11:10 AM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by dom in matrix on May 3 at 12:01 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 3 at 1:01 PM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by RobG on May 3 at 1:12 PM EDT         * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Starkers on May 4 at 11:53 AM EDT           * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 4 at 5:20 PM EDT             * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by RobG on May 4 at 5:36 PM EDT             * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Starkers on May 4 at 11:55 PM EDT               * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Televiper on May 5 at 12:22 AM EDT               * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 5 at 3:25 AM EDT                 * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by NankerPhledge on May 5 at 4:02 AM EDT                   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 5 at 5:47 AM EDT                   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Starkers on May 5 at 8:32 AM EDT                     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by NankerPhledge on May 5 at 7:45 PM EDT         * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 4 at 5:14 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Compulsive on May 3 at 11:57 AM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by JMac on May 3 at 12:14 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by JMac on May 3 at 12:05 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Starkers on May 3 at 12:15 PM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Wesley on May 3 at 1:09 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by dom in matrix on May 3 at 3:06 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Starkers on May 4 at 11:41 AM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Mr_Independent on May 4 at 4:27 PM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Porieux on May 3 at 9:44 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by paladisiac on May 4 at 1:38 AM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 10 at 12:26 AM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Starkers on May 4 at 11:58 AM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Porieux on May 4 at 5:50 PM EDT         * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Starkers on May 4 at 11:40 PM EDT           * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Porieux on May 5 at 5:12 AM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by philajoe on May 3 at 5:50 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by chairman79 on May 4 at 12:45 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Hawkeyewest on May 5 at 12:20 AM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Televiper on May 5 at 12:33 AM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Esschoir on May 5 at 6:12 PM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by DanielEsq on May 5 at 7:04 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Katrina on May 10 at 12:26 AM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Starkers on May 6 at 11:32 AM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by CBCD on May 7 at 6:09 AM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 7 at 6:30 AM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by muggsy on May 7 at 10:43 AM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by kargatron on May 7 at 1:35 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 7 at 2:33 PM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by RobG on May 7 at 6:09 PM EDT         * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by galechicago on May 8 at 6:42 AM EDT         * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by anose on May 8 at 9:08 AM EDT           * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by RobG on May 8 at 10:43 AM EDT             * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Wesley on May 8 at 12:24 PM EDT               * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by NankerPhledge on May 8 at 4:01 PM EDT   * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by aphexbr on May 7 at 2:28 PM EDT     * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by muggsy on May 7 at 3:00 PM EDT       * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Televiper on May 7 at 4:08 PM EDT * RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down posted by Shaughn on May 8 at 11:07 AM EDT

qwynwyn May 2 at 5:02 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey Hey yancey (and RBB in the other thread) - Thanks for the warning about the Rolling Stones catalog. I'll have to dig through tonight to see if there are any albums I want to get before the mass departure.

oakroom May 2 at 5:08 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by qwynwyn "I'll have to dig through tonight to see if there are any albums I want to get before the mass departure." Don't bother -- I just tried and they are unavailable as of now. What's worse, they did count against my monthly downloads! I haven't had to deal with customer service to any great extent and have been very happy with eMusic to date. I sure hope I can get those credits back.

DanielEsq May 2 at 5:08 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey That's a shame. But no regrets. I'm glad eMusic pursued and got the Rolling Stones' catalogue in the first place, and I was thrilled at the way you rolled out and promoted it. Your efforts made me take interest in a group that I hadn't given much thought to. And, notwithstanding the current situation, I hope other labels take notice of the kind of positive push eMusic can give to artists on a label's roster.

eclectricity May 2 at 5:12 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey One million thanks for the advance notice, Yancey. This is very sad news. Guess I know where most of my 90 downloads are going. Right now. edit: Maybe not,huh? Should I attempt to get 'em or not? Yancey?

DanielEsq May 2 at 5:14 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by oakroom Mark: If it isn't resolved quickly via email, call eMusic's Customer Service Dep't. I've had a good experience with them recently, and I bet they'll take care of it on the spot.

CCRGMac May 2 at 6:23 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by DanielEsq I can confirm oakroom's experience (US at least), I tried to grab Let It Bleed which appeared normally (no This album is unavailable in your country" message}, but after the click I got an "Ooops!" and was nine d/ls lighter in my account. Already written to CS. UPDATE - Got my d/l's credited already, less than an hour after writing. Great CS.

eclectricity May 2 at 6:40 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by CCRGMac Yep, I just went for Beggars Banquet and lost 9 tracks - even though the album has 10 tracks. I'll deal with CS tomorrow. Crap. >>Update here, too. I got my 9 credits back - and I hadn't even written to CS yet. How you like that? Thanks, whoever did that. You rock! :-)

discokvn May 2 at 5:20 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey hey just tried to download two RS albums and it took my downloads and gave me no music... i think that if you going to say that they are being taken down tomorrow (the 3rd) that we should still be able to get them on the 2nd... sniff sniff sniff

qwynwyn May 2 at 5:22 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by oakroom awwwww... thanks for everybody's warnings. I will not try to click and download unless something changes...

Porieux May 2 at 5:37 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey So who/what actually forced them to come down, since the labels were OK with it?

CBCD May 2 at 6:01 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey Thanks for the explanation & the heads up.

Eireboy May 2 at 6:10 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey *sigh* ...that's what I get for waiting until my refresh date.

rastamon May 2 at 6:38 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Eireboy Sheesh, I feel for ya, Eireboy! But, I know you know better, right? I got most of what I wanted except some cuts on the "Rock and Roll Circus" but I'll just get them the old fashioned way by ripping them from the DVD stream.

oakroom May 2 at 8:01 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by oakroom They were quick to restore my download credits, so kudos for that. This doesn't really count as advance warning that the tracks are being pulled, but it's nice to have some official notification rather than random message board speculation. Though speculation about what exactly is behind all this is still welcome...

mommio May 2 at 9:08 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey I leaped on them, using available downloads and booster packs in early April (the 3rd, 4th, and 5th). Aftermath Beggar's Banquet Between the Buttons Get Your Ya-Ya's On Let It Bleed Out Of Our Heads The Rolling Stones, Now! I was ready to download another one -- one of the Hot Rocks -- when I discovered it in a stash of CDs that I had forgotten that I had. I decided then that I had enough. Not sorry I downloaded them, and probably wouldn't have come back for more at this point. If they come our way again in the future, I may fill in some more blanks.

Baxter May 2 at 9:24 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey I was just able to get 9 songs from Get Yer Ya Ya's Out. When I clicked on Download All I got the "Oops" and my account was debited for 9 credits. I then clicked on each song individually and I was able to get 9 of 10 songs. I coudn't get Jumpin' Jack Flash.

Katrina May 2 at 10:42 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey Well, poo, there is a reason why monkeys fling it in the zoo. Thanks for trying tho, Yancey.

Katrina May 2 at 11:01 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Katrina This monkey has found everything is DL'd except track 1 of the album.

Katrina May 2 at 11:12 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Katrina Rut-roh, scooby, the track IDs are all mixed up!

Katrina May 2 at 11:20 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Katrina Thanks again, Yancey, for telling us all; I'm never one to shoot a messenger. RIP, Rolling Stones. Too much hassle, I think some RHCP songs are in order.

davidmin2 May 2 at 11:34 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Katrina Hey, I grabbed Let It Bleed and Beggars Banquet since I already had the 1st tracks from Hot Rocks.

Katrina May 3 at 12:24 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by davidmin2 That's cool, I had some insane notion since I'd just come from dinner & drinks, that I needed full albums. I got Beggars Banquet when emu first posted it and I was sober, it's all I really wanted. And I only really got it because that cover is so gross. I cleaned toilets at one point to put myself through colege. I don't need a physical copy of some random dirty toilet....online seemed a cleaner solution. I was just trying to jack with database permissions on my full tummy. I don't need those albums from 40 years ago that I never bought, anyway. Pah. Pffft on the lawyers. THey went to the same colege i did.I bet they have filthy toilets

Wesley May 3 at 12:39 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey They are all gone now. The only real surprise is that it took so long.

Joey Jo Jo May 3 at 1:06 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Katrina Which colege did you go to?

Katrina May 3 at 1:24 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Joey Jo Jo The colege of blond, and really need to look up my alma mater and hide my gray. You smart-ass whipper snapper, you! Actually, Kansas University: Jayhawks ruled the Orange Bowl and won the 2008 BB championship. Quite a year for my alma mater in the sports arena. I graduated right before Danny Manning & the Miracles...they were getting strong when I left, and won the year after I graduated. I've always loved KU basketball, played BB as a kid. Lived across the street from Allen Fieldhouse (basketball) one year; across the street from the football stadium, another.

aphexbr May 3 at 5:45 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey ...and yet another reason to shake my head at the bizarre business practices of the entertainment industry. In what other industry do you not only dictate which countries a person is allowed to buy from you, but also the terms and conditions and the retailers allowed to sell your products? (then, of course, blaming piracy for falling sales when those excluded find other means to obtain the product) Was the money of eMusic's customers just not good enough for them, I wonder? Some kind of licencing problem that meant that some i wasn't dotted on a contract? Or are they labouring under the delusion that if people were willing to spend $3 here for an album then they must be willing to spend $10 elsewhere? Meanwhile, albums sales are falling while Grand Theft Auto 4 and Wii Fit are breaking sales records. The music industry response to this is to further restrict their customer base? Madness. Thanks for the warning, Yancey, even though it doesn't affect me. Looking forward to the next eMusic move.

RobG May 3 at 11:10 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by aphexbr Psst...WiiFit doesn't come out until the 21st. Still, you have good points. Sorry to see ABKCO go. I was planning on downloading some of the Cameo Parkway stuff this month, but too late, I see. I thought ABKCO was in bed with UMG and I hoped this would be a harbinger of things to come (oh man, I'd love having some of the Verve Music Group stuff here) but I guess not. I'd really love to know what went down, but I guess all we have is speculation.

Compulsive May 3 at 11:57 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey Hey, Yancey, thanks for the heads up, even though I found it too late. Ironically, my husband is a fan and has been buying their CDs used. As in, no money going to the labels. Even then, I was still considering downloading the eMusic stuff. But now, I guess I won't be doing that. Way to lose sales, ABKCO.

dom in matrix May 3 at 12:01 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by RobG I'd be very surprised if it's a money issue, since they did not have enough time to fully audit the sales. My sense is that someone from another service applied some pressure to have the tracks removed from emusic. I know nothing. Just a gut feeling.

JMac May 3 at 12:05 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey Dammit. I sort of expected they might not be here for a really long time, but I thought there would be some contracted minimum, say six months or so. A thought for which there was of course no warrant at all, and you'd think I'd have learned by now that if you know you're going to get it, get it now. Ah well, the only one that was on my "definitely" list was Beggar's Banquet, my vinyl copy having gone missing some years ago. And thanks for the heads-up, even if I didn't see it in time. This was obviously a labor of love for many eMu staff, and it's sad to see that go for naught, or little. (And Yancey, if I may interject a perhaps overly-sensitive English major's note: "music consumer" is a horrible phrase, and you're a good writer--surely you can avoid it.)

JMac May 3 at 12:14 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Compulsive Same here, Compulsive. I haven't listened to these guys for years and frankly getting reacquainted with them is not at the top of my to-do list. Their presence on eMu, not to mention the advocacy for them on the part of eMu writers, esp. Yancey, got me interested again, though, and I got to remembering what great stuff was on Beggar's (Beggars'?) Banquet, so I was going to get that and cherry-pick a lot of others that I don't have on vinyl. Now, my interest having been piqued, it's off to the online used cd store for a copy of BB. That sound you don't hear, Mr. Record Exec, is my change not jingling in your pocket.

Starkers May 3 at 12:15 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey Fat lot of good the short availability of this did me. Even though I may be PHYSICALLY LOCATED in the US, the stupidity of the emusic (mis)management prevented me from acquiring any of these tracks because my credit card is himed in Australia. I say STUPIDITY, and I mean exactly that: It's no different to me walking into a Borders in, say Laguna Hills, or the Louisiana Music Factory in New Orleans, and those stores' managament telling me that they're sorry, but they won't sell me a CD because my CC is homed in Australia. They would not do that, because it's stupid, they wouldn't know where the CC is homed, and it's totally irelevant. Outside their sphere of influence even. Pay attention, eMusic: you are no different. Please now start to act in a professional manner and deal with the issues I have privately raised with you.

aphexbr May 3 at 1:01 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by RobG "Psst...WiiFit doesn't come out until the 21st. " For once, Europe had something before the US - it came out here on the 25th April and I've had it since Monday!

RobG May 3 at 1:12 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by aphexbr Well, I'll be damned. I stand corrected. (At the risk of taking things off topic, how is it? The wife wants it, I'm not sold.) And starkers, umm, I think that it's you that doesn't get it. It's not the same as your analogy. The labels set region restrictions, not eMusic. If your CC says Australia, eMusic is going to assume that's where you are. That's what they go by for determining your region, not the address you give them. It would have been a violation of whatever agreement they had to sell you these tracks, even though you claim you're in the US because your card still says Australia. If they were just taking people's word on it, I'd guess a lot of people would have magically moved to the US about the time the Stones catalog dropped and the ABKCO catalog would have dissapeared even faster than it did.

Wesley May 3 at 1:09 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers Sorry Starkers but you analogy is flawed. When you walk into a store the person selling you the item obviously knows you are in the US despite a foreign credit card. But this is a virtual shop and there is no way to really prove you are in the US. It's not realistic to expect Emusic to just take your word for it. If they did that lots of people would take advantage.

dom in matrix May 3 at 3:06 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Wesley Territory restriction is beyond emusic's control. These are established via physical licensing and distribution deals that pre-date many new deals getting done. What I find interesting is that Europe has snuggled up together under the blanket of The EU and yet, those trade agreements do not extend into music. It's a level of protectionism for a specific medium that is antiquated in the digital age The same thing goes for GATT and US/EU agreements. Shows how much power the publishers and labels with publishing interests still have in the game.

philajoe May 3 at 5:50 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey So now the Stones join Elvis Costello and Frank Zappa in the emusic history book

Porieux May 3 at 9:44 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers Wow for someone with such a strong opinion it doesn't sound like you tried too hard to solve the problem. You have many other options besides simply complaining you know.

paladisiac May 4 at 1:38 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Porieux i wasn't much of a fan of the stones. kinda thought they were overhyped. but when they dropped here, i thought i'd try 'em out. did so a couple weeks ago. i downloaded "let it bleed". my opinion has changed. so today i go to download "beggar's banquet". gone, as stated in this thread. i'm not convinced enough to buy their albums outright, new or used, but a couple more albums like "let it bleed" and i might actually would have become a stones fan. the big record labels probably lost more business due to what in reality is short-sighted greed, or maybe a genuinely innocent as a "snafu", but either way, i'll listen to "let it bleed" and pursue the stones no more... unless they return.

Starkers May 4 at 11:41 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Wesley Wesley, Sorry, but the analogy is not flawed. Every IP address is tracked to a physical location. With competent and professional programming techniques, this can be very easily verified: how do you think they find people who are sourcing ilegal content? The CC is one way - a very flawed way - of finding out where somebody might have a postal address. Nothing more. And yes, I know about proxies: I have been dealing with the internet, in a programatical sense, for more than just a couple of years. I know more than just a little of what I am talking about, and I know that the techniques used by emusic are flawed at the very design concept. Take it or leave it; I care little. I do care that they have sloppy design, and I do care that they employ lazy programmers. Lazy programmers are good programmers, btw; but this is sloppy design.

Starkers May 4 at 11:53 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by RobG RobG ... You said "If your CC says Australia, eMusic is going to assume that's where you are." Please explain to me the logic behind that? Do you never, ever, travel away from your home? Have you never rented a car from Avis/Budget/Hertz/whomever? So, I'm currently in New Orleans. How stupid are eMusic to make that sort of assumption? Did my hotel here make the same assumption? No, they're not that stupid! Did the fairgrounds, when I paid for my jazzfest tix, make the same assumption? No, they're not that stupid either! When I buy some CDs later today, as I shall, will the stores refuse to sell me those CDs because I have a Aussie CC? Your logic, and that used by eMusic, dictates that they must. That the labels set regional restrictions doesn't make that practice correct, but that is not the discussion here. The point at issue here is how that restirction is put into effect by eMusic, and there are many ways that this can be technically achieved. They system that they have chosen is fundamentally flawed, at its initial design stage, no less. It is that simple. "It would have been a violation of whatever agreement they had to sell you these tracks, even though you claim you're in the US because your card still says Australia" Actually, no. You're wrong: eMusic in fact asked me for an American address I could use in lieu. I have three such addresses I could have chosen: one in LA, one in Dallas, and one in Florida. But that is NOT the point. Dead easy. The point is that eMusic's methodologies are flawed. It is that simple. "Well, I'll be damned. I stand corrected." More than once, it would seem. :)

Starkers May 4 at 11:58 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Porieux "Wow for someone with such a strong opinion it doesn't sound like you tried too hard to solve the problem." Er, with respect, what, exactly, do you know of how I actually tried to solve this problem? My guess would be not a single thing. Unless of course you work for emusic. Yes, I have many options. I already tried several, but efective communication with emusic support requires them to behave in a professional and responsive manner too. They seem to be falling down in that regard. I guess another option is to open this topic up for discussion on my radio show. I will, of course, invite someone from eMusic to discuss this matter on air. What could be fairer than that?

chairman79 May 4 at 12:45 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey For some reason I always stayed away from the Rolling Stones. I love all the bands from that era but never got into the Stones. Maybe it is their current form that kept me away. Anyway, having the catalog on emusic really opened me up to the great music I was missing. Beggar's Banquet and Let it Bleed are legendary. Had it not been for emusic I would have never listened to these albums. Its unfortunate that the Record Industry is so shortsighted.

Mr_Independent May 4 at 4:27 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers They find people downloading illegal content because those folks do nothing to hide or fake the IP address. Emusic isn't in the business of determining if your IP is real or fake.

aphexbr May 4 at 5:20 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers Seriously, you're going to get that annoyed at eMusic? Here's the situation. The entertainment industry - largely, but not exclusively the music industry - is still labouring under the bizarre illusion that international borders still affect business in this century. Specifically, they are still attempting to control supply on a country by country basis. Idiotic, but unfortunately true. For whatever reason, record labels seem to have seen the Internet as a way to enforce this regional control on the customer rather than to free it. For example, I can buy a CD from Amazon US no problem, even though I'm in Spain. Digital? Not a chance - they enforce a US-only policy on those downloads. Now, at the end of the day eMusic is simply a retailer, albeit one with an unusual business model. They are still held to the terms and conditions of the record labels' contracts. One example of this is that if a record label has the rights to sell album X in countries A, B and C, then eMusic can only sell it in those countries, not country D. eMusic have to enforce this contract somehow. The most efficient way is to use the country of origin of your credit card. Put simply, it's much harder to, for example, get a US credit card issued to you than have an Australian credit card and then change your billing address to the US - so they enforce the country of issue, not billing address. So, while I understand your problem, you're attacking the wrong party. It's down to the labels to realise that the music industry is global. Don't like that? Well, the first step would be to complain. The next would be to get a US issued credit card if you want US music. if eMusic were to sell US music to you using an AU card, they could be breaching their contract. Attack the contract, not the poor sucker who's trying to abide by it. By the way, your physical location doesn't matter. I've logged into my eMusic account in England, Spain, Gibraltar, Morocco, even Cuba - it still shows me what's available to me in Spain because that's where my account is located.

aphexbr May 4 at 5:14 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by RobG Quick OT response: Yeah, I've been enjoying Wii Fit. It's a little disappointing in that instead of leading you through a complete workout, it has 4 categories of exercise and you choose individual exercises within those - like the games in Brain Training, if you've ever played that. Despite that, I've found it a good motivator and quite accurate so far.

RobG May 4 at 5:36 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by aphexbr Well, put aphexbr, but I think it's going to fall of deaf ears as yours is at least the second or third time some has tried to say what you've said. And the wife is preordering Wiifit today. :)

Porieux May 4 at 5:50 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers Everything I need to know has been posted in this thread, by you, Dr. Einstein... So basically you are a bitter person who likes to complain and has an 'I'm a vicitim' mentality, expecting people to solve your problems for you rather than taking the situation into your own hands and doing something constructive about it. Sounds like a pitiful existence, no wonder you are so unhappy.

Starkers May 4 at 11:40 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Porieux Actually, I don't like the way that y'all seem to be just a bunch of fanboys here. You don't like the nessage, so y'all just decide to shoot the messenger. For the slow learners, I am not at all unhappy. Perhaps you should come and spend some time in New Orleans at jazzfest: then you'd learn what real music, and real happiness, is all about. Yes, I know that the music industry - the entertainment industry in general - is run by a bunch of greedy morons who don't yet understand the real reason why CD sales are dropping. And piracy is not the reason. Yes, it's the 21st century, boyo, and they need to either face up to that simple fact, or just whither and die. In my lines of business I see lots of people who adopt. I see far more who fail. No, I am not a victim, but I do appreciate your concern. Or perhaps that's a flame? If you can't deal with the truth, just please keep your personal attacks to yourself. I've been insulted by people with far greater creativity than you seem to have. Again, you know very few of the facts pertaining to this matter, so please do not presume that you do. I have not asked for anyone here to solve my problem. I merely commented on my problem; deal with my comments, not with me. A couple of people made some reasoanable comments; you just tried to bring the conversation down with a personal attack; Perhaps you should look at the comments of others and try to conduct yourself in a similar manner.

Starkers May 4 at 11:55 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by aphexbr "Now, at the end of the day eMusic is simply a retailer" Exactly. "The most efficient way is to use the country of origin of your credit card." I don't accept that. Now, I've only been involved in systems analysis and design for about 25 years, so I'm still just a beginner ;) but this is stuff that I eat for breakfast. So, based upon my experience, I have to say that it's neither effecient, effective, nor is it good design. Yes, I do accept that it is one way. But not by a long shot is it the best, the most efficient, or even the easiest, depending upon the various forms of systems architecture that they may have employed. Perhaps a better way to manage the situation - please note my use of the word "manage" here - would be to prevent users without eligibility from even seeing the availability of the downloads. That is called "management of expectations", and it's a very useful way of ensuring minimal disappointment for your client base. "So, while I understand your problem, you're attacking the wrong party. It's down to the labels to realise that the music industry is global." Well, not really. When it's a fundamental systems design issue, then it's eMusic's problem. I accept that they are bound by their contractual arrangements with the idiots who misrun the record labels, but the actual methods by which thise arrangements will be put into place will be determined by eMusic, not by the labels. eMusic accept that it's their systems that are denying the access, so it's not that it's the wrong party, but merely what methodology they've employed. And as I've said, that comes back to the systems design: they have implemented a model that was easy to implement, but was it the most effective? Was it the most appropriate? I would respectfully suggest it was not. And I'm doing that from a background of doing this for a living. "if eMusic were to sell US music to you using an AU card, they could be breaching their contract. Attack the contract," But neither of us are privvy to that contract, are we? All I'm saying is that their model falls to pieces when looked at with the cold heart of logic. Cheers.

Hawkeyewest May 5 at 12:20 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey I didn't sign up at eMusic to download the Stones. Love the band in that I had one older brother into the Stones and one into the Beatles. Since joining eMusic it has been the search for the not so commercial. The hunting and listening to others. I feel sorry for the other artists in the ABKCO catalogue that have lost this retail outlet (for now?).

Televiper May 5 at 12:22 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers "Perhaps a better way to manage the situation - please note my use of the word "manage" here - would be to prevent users without eligibility from even seeing the availability of the downloads. That is called "management of expectations", and it's a very useful way of ensuring minimal disappointment for your client base." It sounds like somebody wants their silver spoon. Honestly? Managing expectations? WTF is that exactly? Emusic has to hide the fact that Rolling Stones albums are available to Americans only because someone in Australia might have an almighty hissy-fit and tirelessly dwell on the vague notion that they could write better software? The industry system we have now has been in place for decades. It's not going to change overnight because a portion of their business moved to the Internet. Their not going to forsake legitimate streams of revenue just to circumvent cross regional licensing restrictions on digital downloads. Emusic is an online retailer. You log onto eMusic it's like you are walking into a store that exists next door to your home. At the moment your address is determined by your mailing address. It's a very common, normal, business practise. I believe it would be more disparaging to essentially lose access to your account because you're physically located in a place eMusic doesn't service, despite having an ample Internet connection.

Televiper May 5 at 12:33 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Hawkeyewest For me it's just more of the stark reality of the music business and the curious fact that they don't bend over backwards to sell stuff. The Stones themselves are a very accessible band. I believe the majority of their catalogue is available at steep discounts on CD. That's why I've never really worried about not having access in Canada. But, I definitely would of picked up a couple albums for taste. I haven't gone to the store for a couple albums just for taste. I'm betting there's decent market share of people who feel the same way.

aphexbr May 5 at 3:25 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers OK, here's the thing. eMusic have been running with this model for a decade now, bar some changes in the way they charge for the music library. You apparently seem to think you know how to run things better than they do, so let's hear it: How, exactly, can they check your country of residence in a way that's least open to exploitation or loopholes? IP addresses can be spoofed or altered through proxies. You can lie about your address when signing up. Your billing address can be changed quite easily, especially if you have relatives in the destination country. You apparently have better ideas, let's see them. So far, all your reams of text have done is to offer completely non-constructive criticism but no answers. In any case, there's already a clear option open to you - get a credit card issued in the US. You seem to be there on a long-term basis, so why not just get a US card instead of bitching about how your AU card won't give you everything you need? It took me 3 months to get a local bank account and CC here in Spain, and their banking system is notoriously slow. Besides, other online stores (e.g. iTunes, Amazon) operate in much the same way - i.e. you go to the iTunes US store to buy US releases, the Japan iTunes to buy Japanese releases, etc. If you don't have a US credit card, you can't sign up for the US iTunes. I don't know which part of the card they use to verify this (e.g. billing address or country of issue), but the restrictions are still there. The only different with eMusic is that rather than one site for each country it sells in, the same site is used for everyone with an imperfect system for hiding ineligible content. "But neither of us are privvy to that contract, are we? " Not the exact text but the gist of it, yes. eMusic has contract with labels. Said labels only have the rights to distribute music in particular countries. Therefore, eMusic will only get the rights to sell in those countries from those labels. e.g. V2 can't give eMusic the US rights to The White Stripes because Universal owns them (and won't give rights to eMusic). So, if eMusic were to sell a Stripes album to a US customer, it would be illegal as they have not obtained the right to do so.

NankerPhledge May 5 at 4:02 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by aphexbr To add to your argument, aphexbr, Australians (also everywhere outside USA?) can't use the Amazon MP3 store AT ALL. The day it opened, I downloaded an album (an album eMusic had but couldn't sell in my region), using my own Aussie CC but my sister's address in Arizona. The next time I went back they had got wise to this ruse and wanted a US CC. Awwww. ;-( So I guess I am Exhibit A as to why they need to toughen those rules. Regional restrictions are the absolute pits from many angles, but it is The Industry not eMusic to blame. Yes, we all get frustrated with it but seriously: cope. Can I plug here a post I did about Richard Shindell's philosophy on the broader issues? Worth taking into account I reckon. On another note Starkers, are you involved with the Sydney Jazz Club? I've been getting into jazz (via eMusic) recently and looked at the SJS website a few times. I wondered what might be a good event for a completely ignorant (but I know what I like) n00b to attend?

Porieux May 5 at 5:12 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers OK Starkers, we are going around in circles. You continue to complain, rather than pursue a solution to the problem, which wouldn't even require eMusic's involvement. This is all I am trying to tell you.

aphexbr May 5 at 5:47 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by NankerPhledge Yeah I was aware of that about Amazon, maybe my ramblings don't get across my feelings accurately! Anyway, as if to prove that the entertainment industry is out to kill itself rather than be digital-friendly, here's an article revealing that in order to release movies on iTunes on the same day of the DVD release, the studios are charging Apple $16! Apple are going to use this as a loss leader, selling the movies at $14.99, but come on! It's possible to buy 3 month old DVDs for less than that! So, the movie industry doesn't learn from the mistakes of the music industry (strange since many of them are part of the same corporations), insisting on overpriced, DRM-laden downloads but blames piracy for the shortcoming for their strategy.

Starkers May 5 at 8:32 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by NankerPhledge "On another note Starkers, are you involved with the Sydney Jazz Club? I've been getting into jazz (via eMusic) recently and looked at the SJS website a few times. I wondered what might be a good event for a completely ignorant (but I know what I like) n00b to attend?" Not directly, but I do know people who are. The first question though might be what do you know about jazz? If I told you that the Rolling Stones play jazz, what would you say? :) If I told you that a great deal of today's C&W music owes a lot to jazz, what would you say? Consider that Route 66 was written for Nat King Cole; the Stones only did a cover of it. Likewise Fortune Teller, another early Stones piece, was written by New Orleans jazz great Allen Toussaint, who just performed here at Jazzfest with Elvis Costello. For a beginner, I'd probably suggest something from the Straight Ahead basket. Stuff that you may be likely to know, stuff that swings with no effort at all, stuff that doesn't carry too much complexity. Explore artists like some early Nat King Cole (Route 66 as noted above) or just about anything that pairs Oscar Peterson with Ray Brown. That's all very easy to listen to. Grab copies of Miles Davis's So What, Dave Brubeck's Take 5, Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong doing Cheek To Cheek, Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage, and Horace Silver's Song For My Father. Those are five tracks that are regarded as amongst the best jazz pieces ever recorded, and they will give you a bit of a feel for some of the things that jazz encompasses. The SJC is more into Dixie/Trad. A lot of people associate that style as being "jazz" without understanding just how many variants of jazz there really are. Within that sort of a framework, who have you found (from within whom you've been downloading) that you've enjoyed. That sort of info will help me to help you a little more, giving me guidance as to where your tastes might be lying. The Chuck Yates gigs at the Stag are good, but tend towards the Be-Bop side of the scale. So too do the SIMA gigs down at the Seymour. that's in contrast with many of the gigs in the SJC gig guide which will tend to be trad/dixie. hth.

Esschoir May 5 at 6:12 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey "Regional restrictions are the absolute pits from many angles, but it is The Industry not eMusic to blame." "Or are they labouring under the delusion that if people were willing to spend $3 here for an album then they must be willing to spend $10 elsewhere?" "The music industry response to this is to further restrict their customer base? Madness." "Now, my interest having been piqued, it's off to the online used cd store for a copy of BB. That sound you don't hear, Mr. Record Exec, is my change not jingling in your pocket." "It's a level of protectionism for a specific medium that is antiquated in the digital age." "Anyway, having the catalog on emusic really opened me up to the great music I was missing. Beggar's Banquet and Let it Bleed are legendary. Had it not been for emusic I would have never listened to these albums. Its unfortunate that the Record Industry is so shortsighted." "For me it's just more of the stark reality of the music business and the curious fact that they don't bend over backwards to sell stuff." "Pah. Pffft on the lawyers." For me, the above quotes are the real take-away points from this discussion. (Ok, I included that last one, because, given my profession, I just flat-out loved it.) I agree, we shouldn't go ballistic on eMu for something that is (as Yancey put it) out of their control. But I'm not sure starkers deserves all the slings and arrows sent his way either. I think geographical restrictions make absolutely no sense in the digital world, because I can go to Japan and buy CD's with my US CC and I can log onto amazon.jp and buy CD's with my US CC. Download purchases should be just as easy. If downloads are the wave of the future, the music business should stop making legal purchases so friggin' hard. And whoever is behind pulling the Stones catalog (again, not blaming eMusic, it was tremendous that they pulled it off at all) should listen, read and think hard about the customers who say they would rather buy the CD's used, in which case the record companies get zilch. (Anyone remember Garth Brooks in the early 90's being a shill for the record cos on trying to stop people from buying used CD's? If you don't think they are greedy, you should see how wrong they were, even on the US copyright law, at the time.) Maybe it's not such a bad thing Starkers sparked off all this fuss. I WANT eMu (clearly one of the good guys) to have these complaints to point to when they try to explain to the record companies how the latter are only shooting themselves in the foot. How is the industry mind-set going to change if we don't get at them from as many angles as we can? For my part, that means buying eMu instead of most other DL stores, DRM-free instead of DRM, very few new CD's from regular retailers unless they price it right, a lot of used CD purchases from online independent sellers and bricks and mortar independents as well, supporting artists who "get it" like Janis Ian, Nine Inch Nails, Richard Shindell, etc. etc. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead.

DanielEsq May 5 at 7:04 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Esschoir "Pah. Pffft on the lawyers." ___________________________ For me, the above quotes are the real take-away points from this discussion. (Ok, I included that last one, because, given my profession, I just flat-out loved it.) _____________________________________________________________ Ditto.

NankerPhledge May 5 at 7:45 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers I've listened to and downloaded a fair bit so I know what I like (bebop and "hard bop" according to Wikipedia. Am working my way through the Fatasy and Riverside etc labels here) was just wondering about gigs. The Stag sounds like a goer. Thanks for the help.

Porieux May 5 at 8:17 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by NankerPhledge There seems to be someone here who thinks 'rhythm and blues' is the same thing as jazz. I can see that you know better though ;-)

Starkers May 6 at 11:21 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Porieux "There seems to be someone here who thinks 'rhythm and blues' is the same thing as jazz" Care to tell me where R&B comes from? What about Rock and Roll? The roots of most modern music is strongly steeped in Jazz and Gospel. That's a fact. R&B, Country, R&R ... even Rap! I see little distinction (of any relevance) between blues and jazz, they are so woven together, and between them, you can draw a line to just about all modern music. The typical I, IV, V or I, VI, II, V chord progressions that comprise so much of the popular music from the 1950s on comes straight from the early 20th century. And the modern revivalist churches, with their Christian Rock bands? Pure Gospel, and that's the gospel. :) Perhaps you might like to take some time to open your mind, and your ears, and listen? Check out Louis Jordan, from 1948. Saturday Night Fish Fry would be a good starting point. Then try and tell me that Rock And Roll started in the 1950s, with Bill Haley. I actually have a version of that song that dates back to the 1920s, btw. R&B is nothing new, and it wasn't new when somebody called it that when the Stones started to play their music. It was - and still is - just a label, and one that;s very often misused, these days. Compare some Black R&B vs some Soul vs some Smooth Jazz ... show me the deliniations, please. Difficult to find in many instances, and it's mostly poorly calssified. Louis Jordan ... go back further (than what I've already suggested) and you'll see (hear) the roots of rap. And as I already stated, Route 66, a very well known Stones piece, was originally recorded in about 1943, by Nat King Cole. It's a jazz piece. 12 bar blues, written by Bobby Troupe. He was in the original MASH movie, as well as a couple of TV series, FWIW. Perhaps you should spend some time talking with musicians - working musicians, those who have done a bit of study, who have spent more than five minutes in the business, and who know their stuff. As a final couple of points: Charlie Watts - the Stones's drummer, as I'm sure you know - has his own jazz group. That's where he directs most of his efforts these days. He seems to recognise a connection that seems to have escaped your notice. Fancy that! :) And Ginger Baker, surely one of the wildest Blues/Rock drummers to ever hit the stage (Cream, et al) was playing jazz BEFORE he joined Cream, and to this day still plays jazz. He also seems to have recognised a connection that seems to have escaped your notice. Fancy that! :) Oh yes ... some of the artists at the New Orleans Jazzfest, over the last couple of weekends: Robert Plant. Stevie Wonder. Jimmy Buffet, Billy Joel, Sheryl Crow, Tim McGraw, Elvis Costello, Bobby McFerrin, Randy Newman ..... All of whom seem to have recognised a connection that seems to have escaped your notice. Fancy that! :) Over the past few years, artists at New Orleans Jazzfest have also included Paul Simon, Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen ... and again they would seem to have recognised a connection that seems to have escaped your notice. Fancy that! :)

Starkers May 6 at 11:28 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by NankerPhledge Ok, yes, The Stag would be good for you then. Sima might be useful, and Jonathon Szwartz puts on gigs at Bondi Icebergs that might be of interest as well. The Fantasy and Riverside collections are really great. Along those lines, see if you can get into the Mingus and Dolphy stuff - look for the Candid label. Mingus was a great teacher in the way that he played, took you over the edge, and pulled you back. There's few better than him for getting into beBop. And also look towards Max Roach. One of the highlights at Jazzfest was the Roach Tribute with Jason Marsalis. Awesome does not do the gig justice, but aside from the players, they had a great starting point. Pleasure to help.

Starkers May 6 at 11:32 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Esschoir "I think geographical restrictions make absolutely no sense in the digital world, because I can go to Japan and buy CD's with my US CC and I can log onto amazon.jp and buy CD's with my US CC. Download purchases should be just as easy." And that is precisely my point. "the music business should stop making legal purchases so friggin' hard." Which is the real reason why piracy is an issue. The music publishers do very little to help the artists that they represent. There's the rub!

Porieux May 6 at 4:39 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers Wow the level of pretentiousness is mind-staggering. Fancy that! Further proof that a small amount of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Starkers May 6 at 6:07 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Porieux Pretension? Small amount of knowledge is dangerous? There you go again with the flames. When you don't have a valid point to add to the argument, you just go and try to shoot the messenger. But here's the message for you: grow up. Listen. Learn You are unworthy of my time. Either add some value to the discusiion, or just keep the mouth firmly closed. Hopefully you'll take a few moments to extricate the feet first.

Porieux May 6 at 7:20 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers LOL!

Jacked Up Jazz May 6 at 7:22 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers Hey, can I play?

Televiper May 6 at 7:52 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers Ummm... a level of inheritance and cross pollination between musical genres does not mean that you only have one genre. Bill Haley didn't set out to completely differentiate himself musically. He set out to create something that was fun, and immediate that had an energetic presence on stage. It's also important to note the words he sang, the venue he played in, and the audience he played to. No one believes that Bill Haley created his sound from scratch. But, he gets credit for reaching his audience. "As a final couple of points: Charlie Watts - the Stones's drummer, as I'm sure you know - has his own jazz group. That's where he directs most of his efforts these days. He seems to recognise a connection that seems to have escaped your notice. Fancy that! :)" Note that Charlie Watts still plays full time in one very heavily touring rock band. I think his heart is still in the Rolling Stones. Yah, it's great that he does jazz stuff on the side. But, how does that make your point? "And Ginger Baker, surely one of the wildest Blues/Rock drummers to ever hit the stage (Cream, et al) was playing jazz BEFORE he joined Cream, and to this day still plays jazz." How does that make a connection between rock and jazz? Perhaps he joined Cream to expand his horizons? Perhaps jazz didn't provide ample opportunity for him to do some energetic, and pummelling drumming? If anything the notable distinction between Ginger Baker and most other rock drummers is the fact he brought many "jazz" elements into a rock scenario. He also seems to have recognised a connection that seems to have escaped your notice. Fancy that! :)" This statement just oozes pretentiousness. "Oh yes ... some of the artists at the New Orleans Jazzfest, over the last couple of weekends: Robert Plant. Stevie Wonder. Jimmy Buffet, Billy Joel, Sheryl Crow, Tim McGraw, Elvis Costello, Bobby McFerrin, Randy Newman ....." Yes.. because popular artists put bums in seats and attract an otherwise jazz-numb audience to the festival. They are definitely respected as quality performances who make respectable music, but don't mistake them being at a jazz festival as being jazz. Just about every jazz festival features out of genre acts to help draw in a bigger audience. In fact I wouldn't doubt that all major festivals bring in off genre acts for the exact same reasons. Is it really over your head decades of development have made R&B and Jazz two different, highly distinguishable styles of music?

MediaJunkie May 6 at 8:21 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Televiper Why do you have to put a label on it? Jazz fusion combined a more emphatic rock beat and electric guitars into jazz. While you can divide alot of it, there are some artists who dabble in both.

Starkers May 6 at 10:25 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Televiper "Is it really over your head decades of development have made R&B and Jazz two different, highly distinguishable styles of music?" Er, no. If you had taken a few moments to read my opening sentences, you would have seen the following sentence: "The roots of most modern music is strongly steeped in Jazz and Gospel. That's a fact. R&B, Country, R&R ... even Rap!" I think it's fair to say that this suggests that I recognise, in more than just a tiny way, that there have been multiple strands of music that have been spawned from Jazz. And while yes, bums on seats is a part of the reason they have the big acts, let me assure you that all of the big names that I saw in New Orleans this year were very definitely doing jazz. If you were there, and if you saw different, then fine; perhaps you went to different performances than I did; with 11 concurrent stages it was not possible to attend every performance. And I certainly would not suggest that the audience there was "jazz numb" Nothing could be further from the truth, I would respectfully suggest.

Televiper May 6 at 10:35 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers But you're responding to someone making a snarky comment about not seeing the difference between Jazz and R&B. Are you saying that long drawn out rant was just an opportunity to hear yourself speak???? The bums in the seat comment was directed toward the pop artists that you listed as playing at a jazz festival. As was the big names comment. I'm not talking about anything else that happened there. What I was saying was they bring those people in to attract people who wouldn't otherwise show up at a jazz festival. If they played jazz, you could of said so. But, you seemed to be making the point that there's blurred lines between jazz and pop music because they were playing at a jazz festival. From the tone of this last reply, you definitely have a snotty pretentious streak in you. "oh... look at meeee.. I'm at a Jazzzzz festival... you guys don't appreciate jazz like I doooooo"

Porieux May 7 at 12:32 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Televiper You're wasting your effort Televiper ;-)

Starkers May 7 at 12:56 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Televiper "If they played jazz, you could of said so." I did. "you seemed to be making the point that there's blurred lines between jazz and pop music" There are. Regardless of whether they're playing at a jazz festival, or anywhere else, the lines are, and always will be, blurred.

Televiper May 7 at 1:14 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Porieux "You're wasting your effort Televiper ;-)" *rolls eyes* I know... You can call it Canuck politeness =8-)

CBCD May 7 at 6:09 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey Someone's posts in this thread (hint: name begins with Stark) reminds me of Comic Book Guy on the Simpsons.

aphexbr May 7 at 6:30 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by CBCD Worst.. thread... ever! Seriously though, this is one of the things that amuses me about eMusic. This thread's gone from a warning about a disappearing label, to discussion about previous purchases, to a general bitch about the music industry, to elitist lectures on jazz vs rock. All without missing a beat and without departing from the core topic! Other boards might have drifted off into other areas, we seem to keep on topic round these parts...

eclectricity May 7 at 9:06 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Starkers > Robert Plant. Stevie Wonder. Jimmy Buffet, Billy Joel, Sheryl Crow, Tim McGraw, Elvis Costello, Bobby McFerrin, Randy Newman ..... Paul Simon, Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen ... Are these the "big names" who were playing Jazz? If so, then, with the exception of McFerrin, I'll bet it was some pretty shitty jazz. Robert Plant, Jimmy Buffet, Billy Joel, TIM McGRAW!, Bob Dylan, and the others... Jazz artists??? This is, without a doubt, the stupidest statement I've ever seen posted here. And we've had some doozies.

muggsy May 7 at 10:43 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey Back to topic, if that's possible in this thread. :-) I've been trying to find any information out there regarding the presumed licensing issue that caused the ABKCO catalog to disappear after only a month, but no luck so far. I downloaded a few of the Stones albums in April and actually upped my subscription to 75 songs a month so I could get the rest ASAP. I'm kicking myself because I had a chance to get them on the afternoon of May 2 when my downloads renewed but blew it off, figuring I'd have more time to do it that weekend. Does anybody think there's a realistic chance the ABKCO catalog will come back to eMusic at some point? I can say with certainly that if they don't, I will not be putting any more money in UMG's pocket by buying the CDs or downloading from another site.

kargatron May 7 at 1:35 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by muggsy Yeah, I've seen nothing solid about the actual reasons. I assume emusic isn't forthcoming because they don't want to worsen potential future relationships by being candid about what happened? (Or maybe they did screw up themselves in spite of the claimed due diligence?) One reasonable speculation from http://digitalaudioinsider.blogspot.com/2008/05/no-more-stones.html Perhaps the unknown party who nixed the deal feared that the eMusic downloads were cannibalizing higher-margin downloads from iTunes and Amazon MP3. But even if they were, the revenue loss would probably be more than offset by downloads by eMusic subscribers who previously had no interest in paying for Stones downloads.

aphexbr May 7 at 2:28 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by muggsy Reading between the lines here, I'm going to guess that the problem came from the UMG end of things. i.e., it was the usual thing for large corporations - lower levels implement something that seems to work well, until the big bosses catch wind, decide they don't like it and veto the project. From what I've heard, I don't think UMG are among the more progressive of the major labels when it comes to non-DRM markets. There may be a chance in the future when UMG start opening up their digital strategy for eMusic to walk back in and say "hey, remember these sales figures?" and start things up again. I wouldn't hold my breath for it though... Another possibility is that ABCKO leave UMG's clutches at some point and start selling through eMusic again. The music industry's in a state of flux at the moment, so I wouldn't be surprised if there a change of heart or some equally big news elsewhere in the near future. Meanwhile, if you're really desperate for the CDs but don't want to pay UMG, there's always eBay...

aphexbr May 7 at 2:33 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by kargatron Yeah, that really does sound like corporate thinking to me. They were probably looking at the profit per iTunes download vs. profit per eMusic download without considering that they might be different markets altogether. Not the first label that's made that mistake (I wonder how many customers Anti/Epitaph actually lost by removing their catalogue?).

muggsy May 7 at 3:00 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by aphexbr I'm sure that's probably right, but I imagine it's more of a profit-per-download issue for UMG than a DRM issue, since they apparently have no problem making the ABKCO catalog available for DRM-free download on Amazon. As others have noted, though, if UMG looked at the eMusic download numbers and assumed that pulling the catalog would force all those customers to pay higher prices to download on iTunes or Amazon, they're delusional. The old Stones albums have been out for many years on CD, and I've managed to live without them except for Beggar's Banquet and Let it Bleed, which I bought a few years ago when the remasters came out. The rest are (or would be) nice to have, but I can wait. Desperate I'm not.

Televiper May 7 at 4:08 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by muggsy I've been thinking about this.. Price per download All parties involved were well aware of what they were going to earn by selling their wares on eMusic. It doesn't make sense that they'd start worrying about cannibalizing within a month. That's not enough time to collect data, or analyze numbers. DRM Once again... if DRM was an issue they wouldn't have crossed eMusic's threshold, or they would have at least a) given some time, or b) released a portion of the catalog. Something Bureaucratic I believe something bureaucratic happened in the process. After everything i's were dotted and the t's crossed, someone in the bureaucratic end of the business raised some alarm bell. I simply don't believe it was one of the big surface issues. I believe it's something obscure that caused an panic. Something that only came to light once the catalog showed up online.

RobG May 7 at 6:09 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by aphexbr As long as the music industry clings to false conclusions, such as a million downloads at $.30 could have been a million downloads at $1, they're going to continue to suffer. I'm also curious about Epitaph, considering they (and Drag City) actually directly mentioned the money. How many eMusic subscribers followed them to other download services? I know I didn't.

galechicago May 8 at 6:42 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by RobG I was going to download some of the Stones albums of 40 year old music. Oh well, they're gone now, so I will make do with some fresh music from the 21st century instead!

anose May 8 at 9:08 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by RobG Funny you should mention Epitaph. I was writing a letter to them in the car this morning (in my head) about this very subject. Since they left emu, they've released several albums that I most certainly would have grabbed if they were still here: Joe Henry, Devotchka, Nick Cave and Man Man. Well, I bought the Man Man disc because I love their stuff, but the other three, well, I can live without them. I wonder how many other emuers are looking at ANTI releases the same way? I'd love to know what the numbers are for ANTI/Epitaph prior to and after the eMu break-up. Regarding the Stones, I have a conspiracy theory. Yancey mentioned that they consulted ABKCO and UMG, but didn't say anything about getting a sign-off from the Stones themselves. I have this scene in my head of Mick and the boys hanging out in some 25-star hotel suite somewhere. Mick is reading blogs (as I'm sure he always does) and comes across a mention of the Stones catalog on sale at eMu for $0.33 per track. Outraged, he yells over to Keith, "Richards! Stop snorting your father's ashes and get on the phone to our manager. We're the Rolling freakin' Stones. We don't discount our music. EVER." And that's how the Stones catalog got pulled from eMu.

RobG May 8 at 10:43 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by anose The only thing I think is wrong with your conspiracy theory is, the Stones don't really have a say in their ABKCO distributed catalog. As I understand it, they missed a legal loophole in the early days with ended up giving then manager Allen Klein the rights to all their stuff recorded for Decca. That's why they set up Rolling Stones Records, as they were determined to not let that happen again. I may be compeletly off the mark, but that's what I understand happened. As for Anti, yeah, there's been stuff I'd snag if they were still here. Not anything I've been inclined to pay full price for. Frankly, I haven't missed 'em too much.

Shaughn May 8 at 11:07 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in direct response to the topic by Yancey If I am right, Allen Klein still controls most of the Hot Rocks era stuff, driving the boys to form their own label with Sticky Fingers and forever since, I am not sure they had much to do with this, hence all the reissues of the same songs over and over.

Wesley May 8 at 12:24 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by RobG And don't forget that, despite the thread title, it wasn't just The Stones stuff on ABKCO that was removed. ABKCO had other artists and they were removed as well.

NankerPhledge May 8 at 4:01 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by Wesley Yes, it wasn't just the Stones and at the risk of confirming industry short-sightedness the previews of [url= http://www.samcooke.com/products.php?id=38]that Sam Cooke album[/url] they had were so damn sublime I went and bought it off iTunes. It's a very rare record I would do that for though.

Katrina May 9 at 10:57 PM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by davidmin2 Lucky you, david! Those are the 2 best ones, I think!

Katrina May 10 at 12:26 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by paladisiac i downloaded "let it bleed". my opinion has changed. That is my #1 fave Stones album. Pardon me while I repeat myself - I've worn out several physical copies of it. My advice on buying used, get Sticky Fingers. Pretend you're 17 & listen to them both for 72 hours, because you're 17 and have no job, and you'll be a bonafide Stones fan.

Katrina May 10 at 12:26 AM EDT

RE: Rolling Stones Coming Down

in response to the message by DanielEsq Y'all crack me up. Glad I could provide humor to you, too. You are in awe of the succint quality of it all, right? That pffft packs a punch. The exact opposite of lawyerese. Oh, the irony! (don't take that wrong, I wouldn't kid with a bombastix starker lawyer...oh, the horror ... you're starkers, please cover yourself)